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Protection From SCAMS Buying Japanese Samurai Armor!

by: toraba( 1266Feedback score is 1000 to 4,999) Top 5000 Reviewer
62 out of 66 people found this guide helpful.


RULES FOR JAPANESE ARMOR COLLECTORS

1. If it is too good to be true, then you can bet absolutely 100%, that it is and that you are about to get ripped-off big time! Why people want to continually try to challenge this unshakable old-school bit of wisdom I simply cannot understand.

2. Read, read, and read some more books on armour. Teach yourself! Don't rely simply on the knowledge of others. The fact is very few people have a serious understanding of Japanese armour.

3. Always ask for additional images from the seller if the deal seems to good, but you just can't help yourself and are going to bid anyway, regardless of rule #1.

  • Ask for a specific picture of a certain part of the armour or item being offered if in doubt. Ask that the pciture be taken from a certain angle, or beside a local newspaper, with a date or headline on it, et cetera. In short get confirmation that the seller has the item, so you can be sure in your own mind of this fact. 
  • Remember a scam artist can have multiple pictures of an item that they are trying to sell, even if they don't own it. Make sure the seller can prove possession of the item in questions, by using the methods mentioned above.
  • Note: I too see these "great" deals on eBay every other week. Sometimes I will email the seller and ask for additional images, mostly to see the reaction, because I already know the sale is a scam, for in many cases I know where the armour they are trying to market actually is. Generally I get their banking details or the PayPal account information in reply almost instantly. But the sellers have never once been able to back up a scam deal with the extra pictures. Think about it people. Someone wants to sell an item. You agree to pay the full "Buy-it-now" price, and yet they seller isn't willing to manage just one more picture to conclude the deal. Read rule #1 again.

4. Basically avoid buying out of China. Period. At this point in time anyway.

  • I have not yet seen a decent, honest, authentic Japanese samurai article on eBay that has been offered from a dealer in China that did not seem incredibly suspect. Sorry to say that, but those are the facts.
  • Watch for fake armour society documents. If these are offered, ask for the registration number and then contact the NKBKHK ( Nihon Katchu Bugu Kenkyu Hozan Kai / Society for the Study and preservation of Japanese Armour ) in Japan and ask for verification. Don't wince about how hard and time consuming this is to do. Its not. Pick up the phone and try. Better than being shafted for a few thousand dollars isn't it?
  • Most armours I have seen being offered out of China are actually images stolen from the homepages of various dealer around the world. These stolen image listings usually don't have accurate item descriptions, additional support images and or other documentation to back up the claim that the "seller" actually owns the piece being offered.
  • If you are being offered a 17th century gusoku out of China for $450.00 or whatever, ask yourself  why? Is there really anyone in the world today who cannot recognize that authentic samurai armour has a value? Or is it just that the Chinese have a vast stock of these rare items laying around that they want to generously supply the rest of us with, and at moderate prices, in a neighbourly sort of way. The answer? NO! If you thought the answer was yes, I suggest you seek medical advice as soon as possible. $500 or $1000.00 to a Chinese person is still a hell of a lot of money. One "Buy-it-now" PayPal scam and they have done very well for the year. Again, read rule #1. Note. There is no historic reason which adequately supports why there should even be any authentic Japanese armour in China, besides a few gift sets between emperors, and maybe some collectors. But definitely nothing on the scale you hear claims of.  

5. Always be sure to check and compare shipping rates against those offered. I constantly see over inflated shipping fees being charged, especially by dealers selling out of Japan. Shipping rates for Japan Post, which includes EMS, can be found by doing an on-line search. It's not hard to do. They have their rates posted in English folks. Everything you need is there, including weights and rates in relationship to the shipping destination.

6. Check feedback. This is especially true for most Chinese dealers offering samurai armour. Note that many Chinese dealers who are trying to conduct scams have 100% feedback scores. Check their feedback though, and you will often find that it is almost all from internal Chinese buyers. This is rather suspect as few Chinese can yet afford the items being offered on Ebay at US. dollar prices. So it is fairly safe to consider that much of this feedback has been fabricated to build an image of an honest reliable seller, which in turn it is hoped will help build buyer confidence, which might just lead to someone hitting that  "Buy-it-now" button and becoming a another victim of an eBay armour scam.

7. Don't think that Japanese dealers are automatically honest and or experts on the subject of Japanese armour. In Japan the general rule with antiques is let the customer hang themselves. If a person thinks an item is 16th century, the dealer generally won't try to convince them to the contrary. They let the customer convince themselves that what the see is what they think it is. That or they spin great stories and generally really pull out all the tricks in the book to wrangle that sale. Basically the principle works that if a dealer sells something to a customer which was in fact not what the customer had believe it to be when the deal was made, then it was the customer who was wrong for allowing themselves to be tricked, rather than the dealer being wrong for tricking them. And returns are basically just not possible. People may think this is incorrect. Well folks. Feel free to believe what you want. I have lived here, Japan, for almost half my life, and antiques are my business. I know how it works over here. There are of course decent dealers, who will tell you the truth, but you've got more chance of not shooting yourself with a revolver loaded with five shoots in a quick round of Russian roulette than of finding one of them in a crowd of dealers. 

  • Note: There are only a handful of professional dealers who specialize Japanese samurai armour in Japan. Of these a few are very devious, renowned for fabricating histories, altering the armours and doing whatever it takes to make a quick easy buck. Foreigner customers are their favourite sting. Kyoto and Hiroshima are renowned for deceptive dealers who deal in a lot of Japanese armour.
  • Most Japanese antique dealers simple have no experience in Japanese armour. It is such a select and limited field that most could not tell between a very decent replica and an original.
  • Most dealers cannot age pieces correctly, tell if they have been altered and or are actually matched original sets. How can you tell? Read on.
  • Why do so many Japanese sellers now offer their merchandise on eBay. Because collectors in Japan who can see the stuff first hand won't buy it. Much of what you see on eBay is for lack of a better word, crap, and much of it poorly doctored up crap to hide the real problems. Here I have to give Japanese dealers credit. They have found that the crap they can't sell in Japan can still be sold abroad, because aboard it is still rare, even if it is again just crap. Smart move on their part.    

8. Don't think any dealer is honest until you've got some proof to verify that fact. That includes me. I'm ready to meet the challenge. Ask me for more pictures. Ask me for more information, to answer questions and even verification from other source et cetera, and I'll step-up to the plate to support my claims, my reputation and merchandise. I sell a lot of my stock to other dealers. Some of them stock some nice stuff. But that doesn't make them honest. Skilfully taken images to hide damage or flaws, decorative maedate or other items which tend to make a helmet look more elaborate than it is, and or item descriptions that gloss over the facts are standard stuff. I've sold armours to other dealers where I told them about discrepancies, which later when the item was sold on by them, those issues had completely vanished from the key points of their item descriptions.

9. Real armour is expensive. Repeat. Real armour is expensive. If it is super cheap then read rule #1 again.

10. Most armour seen for sale on and off eBay is composite. Composite armours are armours that look to be complete, or in other words have all the main essential component parts, but have actually been made up from an amalgamation of various unrelated armour parts. This is a fact that is almost always, repeat almost always not mentioned by sellers offering such merchandise. In many cases this is because they honestly don't know, but more often than not, the seller does know, but does not want to mention this point as it will affect the items selling price. So learn how to spot a composite set:

  • Firstly, again educate yourself. Read and buy books that can be use as but information and visual example guides. This is a must.
  • Ask the seller. Is this a composite set? Why ask? Because a composite is generally worth much less than a true original all matched set of armour for obvious reasons..
  • A true gusoku or all original armour set will almost always be made up from materials that are used to some extent on each and or all of the various component pieces. In the case of most armours the sangu, or kote armoured sleeves, haidate thing guards and suneate shin guards will have fabric materials that are mismatched between the two or all three of the items. This is the most common and easily identifiable form of composite armour. The fabrics on the sleeve, thigh guard panel and shin guards should be identical. This includes the liner fabrics on the reserves side faces. Any leather materials will generally be found used again on these other parts. Silk edge piping and other details will again be identical. Chain mail size and link construction should be the same. Lacing materials should be the same. Again often these same materials will be found used on the dou cuirass, sode shoulder guards and kabuto helmet. Lacing material, especially the more colourful outside edge trim laces, or mimi-ito strands should again be consistent on all of the parts. If the kabuto has a blue-purple checker pattern lacing and the menpo face mask has an orange tone mimi-ito lacing, and the gessan pendants of the dou are strung with a blue-green checker pattern lacing, you know all of these parts were almost certainly from seperate armours that have been collected together to fabricate what appears to be a full original set to the un-trained eye. 

11. On helmets check to see if the neck guard is original. In the case of a great many antique samurai helmets seen on eBay, the neck guards are replacements. How can you tell:

  • Note how the top edge of the upper most lame, that is fastened to the kabuto helmet, contours to the lower line edge of the hachi. If these two edges do not aligned, with a gap being present between then, the curves not fitting and or the plates of the shikoro actually over-lapping or not sitting flush with the koshimaki band of the hachi, or helmet bowl, then you can be almost certain that the neck guard has been changed.
  • Check to see if all the rivets match. Does the lacing match other parts that may be present? Does the lacquer tone match? Does the mabizashi visor have a gilt and or etched fukurin moulding on it? If so do the fukugaeshi flanges also have the same style matched fukurin? If the flanges are without the fukurin this is a another good sign that the shikoro is not correct.
  • Do the flanges of the upper most lame of the shikoro exceed to far past the side of the helmet forward along the outside edges of the visor? If so, it is probably not the correct neck guard.

12. Question description that are vague. For example I constantly see one seller who can positively identify a true Edo era piece, when the item truly is old, because this helps his sales. But this same seller can never clearly identify a modern piece, but instead says they don't know, but that the item "looks very old". This is very convenient isn't it. They know what is old and can tell you, thus they can get more money, But when the item is new, and that doesn't help them market the item, then they suddenly can't tell anymore. I ask this. Is it likely someone will know what is authentic without knowing what is not? And will a person who knows what is authentic thus not be able to differentiate between original and reproduction/replica in most cases? I would think so. But they can't when it doesn't serve their interests. So in other words,  your being screwed again. Read rule #1.

13. Don't be suckered by nice decoration and gimmicks. By this I mean for example, a kabuto helmet that is in rough order that has a spectacular new maedate on it that looks great, and conveniently hides the real article you are paying for, i.e. the helmet in this case, which should be considered the real investment. It may turn out you bought a very expensive and highly over-priced decoration on a near worthless antique helmet.

14. Reproductions as originals. This is something I see over and over and over again. A dirty replica, rolled through a field or something which is then listed as a true antique armour. I don't know how people keep falling for this but they do. Basically folks, if you keep seeing a similar style of armour over, and over, and over again, it is not very likely it is that old. In fact, it would make more sense that the items is in probably of a mass produced modern run of something. How can you tell:

  • If the item is very dirty, solid and faded but otherwise in excellent condition that should seem a bit suspect. 
  • If the finishes have chipped, and the metal underneath is metalic in colour rather than a old rusty tone, then it is probably a treat metal product and thus modern.
  • Most modern sets tend to have large waki-date stylized horns and o-sode. Such fixtures on a cheaply priced "old"armours et cetera should raise concern. Wakidate are actually rather uncommon on most authentic period armours after the late 1550's, and were generally limited to use on high-end ,very expensive armours of the later Edo era. Both the sort of thing, you don't find on eBay.
  • Paint. Fairly obvious. But you see items that are clearly painted being sold as originals.
  • Face masks that have securing hooks bent at sharp angles adn clipped ends. This is a sign of machine work, not hand forging. 
  • Pressed parts, or plates with extra holes. Also look for mould lines where seams or hole indents have not been filed down. All clear signs of machine fabrication.
15. The bogus history lesson and false claims. Some of the things I read on eBay make me want to be physically ill they are so nauseatingly hard to believe. I remember reading about the guy who visited Osaka Castle and found a kabuto hidden behind a cabinet under some stairs and said it had been tucked up in the wall for like 500 years, so he authoratively stated. He managed to smuggle it out and list it on eBay! It was surely used in battle at the great siege of the cstle in 1615...blah, blah, blah. Besides the castle was burned down and rebuilt from concrete in the early 1960'S, it seems fairly unlikely. This idiot is still around too, though he doesn't do much armour any more since he tired to scam some people by offering to sell items I owned, even sending them bogus emails claiming to be me. I put a stop to that. Unfortunately for others though, this dirt-bag is still around, a permanent fixture on eaby, constantly changing ID's or starting new ones when his negative feedback gets to heavy to carry. Then he just burns the last few customer how bought from him on his last ID name, by not sending them their purchases, and starts up a new user ID, and does it all over again. Its amazing to note how this man constantly specializes in something new. Modern art. Luxury yachts, pictures taken at the marina, et cetera. Now he is constantly stocks nothing but the highest grade and extremely rare Kamakura and Muromachi period swords, which he openly admits he is willing to sell for about 1/10 their actual market value. That is of course if the items are really what he claims them to be, which we can be sure they are not. Anyway, see below for more on this sort of scam. Ebay is full of factious historical items like this. Daimyo grade armours are everywhere these days. If a kabuto has a Kiri mon lacquered on it, is suddenly the confirmed property of Toyotomi Hideyoshi, or was definitely used at the battle of Sekigahara et cetera et cetera. Rubbish. Complete and utter rubbish. The only thing more disgusting than the lies these people come up with and they way they twist and sodomize history is the fact that some people read it and are naive enough to think it is true. Scares the heck out of me.
 
16. The bogus Christie's and Sotherby's valuation claim. This is just so pathetic it is humorous. There is at least one dealer I constantly see doing this. He lists an item, which he states he was told by some mystery man at Christie's or elsewhere to be "definitely worth $65,000.00 US", a conservative low evaluation he claims. Christie's keep hounding him to list it with them, but he prefers not to. Instead he decides...wait for it...yes! He decides to list it on eBay, and that's not all folks, this noble fellow also decides to put it for sale for $6,500.00 as the "Buy-it now"price. Just think about! Your chance of a life time. He knows he can get a minimum $65,000.00 for Christie's but decides instead to let it go for 1/10 the "claimed market value"? Why? There are only two possible reasons for this. The man is either a complete lunatic, or he is a scam artist so full of crap he must be swimming in the stuff up to his eyeballs. Or perhaps he is both. But it doesn't stop there. Week after week, the listing goes back up, sometimes after the item has sold, it re-appears. He claims the buyer backed out, or the check bounced, or something, but maybe he just bid on his own thing and won, and has to do it again. But when the item comes back the price drops from $6,500.00, to $5,500.00 and on and on it goes. Week after week. He adds new lines to the item description like, "Absolutely no more offers to sell off-line", like he needs to fight of the flood of offers. And of course the item doesn't sell. So it is re-listed. Still with the same initial conservative, Christie's backed estimate of $65,000.00 US, but now it is for sale for $750.00. Eventually he sells it, or trades it somewhere and claims to have sold it. But the point is, can anyone really believe this garbage?  The facts are folks, I have sold through reputed auction houses such as Christie's. I have the receipts, documents, and catalogue images of my merchandise, to prove it, which I can back up with pictures taken by myself of the items before they went to Christie's. And I know from working with them, that quotes by them are confidential. I also know that if something is worth $65,000.00, no one, not even the lunatic scam artist is going to tell Christie's to get stuffed and offer it for sale themselves on eBay. Ah...eBay...the gutter you've become.
 
***  So far two people have said this write-up has not helped them. Anyone want to wager that these two persons are themselves scam artists trying to tarnish and down play what I have written here in order to protect there own interest. I would imagine it would be a very safe bet. 
 
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Why am I doing this? Writing out yet another warning to people to be alert and protect themselves from the constant barrage of scams that have become the synonymous with ebay. Truly. I honestly have to ask myself? Why bother? I mean, I'm giving up my time, which is an extremely scarce and important commodity to me these days.  Between running my main business, Toraba International, working on scripts, film productions, book publications and everything else life can throw at you, while raising a family and walking the dogs, doesn't leave much time to spare for charity purposes like this.

So why then. Well the truth is this. Because the blatant scams I see happening on ebay every single time I log on these days offend me immensely. Why should I be offended you may ask? Well, I guess it is something to do with my character. I'm just not the kind of person who stands by and watches when women, children, the elderly or anyone else who can't protect themselves be taken advantage of, in whatever form it may be. Logging on to eBay these days is like watching an old Charles Bronsen film with all the inner city crime and horrible deeds, but without Charles Bronsen and the large caliber justice he packed to help him restore the community back to the safe and harmonous place it had once been.  

The second and more personal reason would be that at least two or three times a month I find entire sections of text from my homepage, Toraba, where we market a selection of quality authentic antique samurai items, copied and pasted into the item descriptions of other some sellers on eBay. Besides the gross indifference of these people to the legal and moral rules regarding intellectual property rights, it is the fact these parties are using my hard work, which is based on years of study and a deep personal passion in Japanese samurai antiques to help a credence to the scams they are trying to pull. The fact that anythign connected with me, my name and or repuation, would be used to sodomized some poor bugger out of his hard earned money, makes my blood boil.

A third reason, which again sometimes involves even my merchandise, is that quite often I see things listed on ebay that I know, with 100% certainty, do not belong to the sellers who are trying to market them? There have been many occasions when items still in my possession are being offered for sale by sellers in China, or the US, or even Japan? Naturally, I don't have a clue who these people are? But there they are, selling something I own, using my item description on ebay. Often these parties hijack accounts or fabricate ones with decent feedback to lend additional credibility to themselves and help push the sale. It's just unbelievable!

Surely this can't be the case, the new or inexperienced eBayer will say. Ebay itself would stop such activities. But would they though? One would like to think they would. But that's like trying to believe global warming isn't really happening. The facts are that eBay is almost wilfully blind and generally indifferent to what happens down at the level of the end users, or basically at the level of you and me. In my own opinion I even think they try to consciously avoid dealing with these matters, because even the scams still make money for them don't they. A rip-off "Buy-it-now"deal nets them a tidy percentage by the time the funds are processed through the ingeniously arranged sales and payment system that is now in place, so that regardless of the integrity of the transaction, they'll still have their money at the end of they day. They also profit for a second time as the funds are processed through their daughter company PayPal. So in the end eBay scores twice of the sale, and even the scam artist will have their funds , but what about you? Don't think PayPal guards your interests. They can only recover money if their are funds in the account of the seller once you register a complaint. By then the scam artist will have emptied the account and be long gone, leaving you up the preverbal creek without even a canoe. Those who have been there will know this is the truth. Those who have so far wandered with indifference through the mine strewn field of present day eBay will learn the hard way. Give it time. Try looking up charge back scams on the internet. Do some research and protect yourself before you get screwed.

Keep this in mind folks. About ten years back, on ebay when it first started, you could find listing for armous in the $20-30,000.00 US range, that actually sold. And these were for serious antiques, not just bogus inflated prices on junk with scam attempts. Now you don't see that unless the listing party is simply using eBay as an advertising vehicle, listing the item knowing it won't sell, to draw attention to their homepage and other merchandise. Why don't you see serious samurai antique items on eBay anymore. Some will say because eBay has brought a fairer, more honest market value to the playing field and thus effectively prevented dealers from overcharging for their goods. Granted this may be true for some things. But the real fact of the matters is, with all the scam artists, trouble, higher fees, and everything else, that serious dealers just don't want to market their main wares on eBay anymore. They might advertise with a few select pieces or smaller sale items, but the real antiques, at least in regards to Japanese armour, have long since vanished from ebay to avoid the tarnishing affect that occures when one associates true antiques with all of the bogus items and scams when marketed together on the same sale pages, and as such, serious antique collectors just don't shop eBay much either anymore. And why would they? Why not go and buy from a reliable source and get what you want without all the worries that go along with buying on eBay these days. Think about it. Bid shilling for example. How do you know who is really bidding against you? Might it not be the seller themselves, using other ID's. Easily done. Good way to bump up that price.

Ebay is so rife with scams that I have actually seen the same set of armour simultaneously on eBay, the listing just days apart. The irony of this is, not that someone was trying to scam the real owner of the armour, by doing a fake listing at the same time, but that both listings were fake and the real item was listed somewhere else. Two scam artists, selling the same bogus item during the same week. Both persons listing using exactly the same images, stolen from the homepage of the real owner, listing the item from two different countries, and at different prices. Naturally the item descriptions were completely different too, because the scam artists didn't really know what it was they were trying to sell, they just new a $1000.00 on a fake sale for samurai armour would be fairly easy to pull off and a tidy score for them. To top it off, one of them used an item description cut and pasted from one of my eBay auctions. An auction that was running at the same time their bogus listing was up and running. Absolutely bloody unbelievable. They should re-name eBay, "EVADE". It would be more accurate. Because that's what it is these days. An all out effort to evade the scams.

Anyway, that was my short lived rant. Here is the meat and potatoes of the issue. How to avoid being scammed buying Japanese Armour on eBay. A basic list which I will sort, edit and up-grade as time allows.

 

Guide ID: 10000000004400504Guide created: 09/15/07 (updated 07/24/08)

 
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