The purpose of this guide to assist riders in making a determination as to whether a treeless saddle would benefit them or their horses.

The following is based on my personal experience with the BOB MARSHALL SPORT SADDLE.  I have not had any experience with other saddles, and therefore cannot attest to their quality or lack thereof.  Also, all of my experiences are based on arena and trail use. 

1.  Exactly what are those weird things?!

Bob Marshall Treeless Sport Saddles (hereafter referred to as BMSS) are exactly what they imply:  saddles constructed without the use of a saddle tree. 

2.  Is this a new concept?

No, it's not.  Modern treeless saddles have been around for many years, and the concept is gaining in popularity as more and more riders are discovering the comfort these saddles afford both themselves and their mounts.

3.  What styles do they come in?

BMSS are available in trail, endurance and barrel racing models.  Also on the market now are various english/dressage type treeless saddles and even a hybrid english/endurance/trail version.  They are called "Sensation" saddles and I belive they are made by a company called "Nickers."  Note:  These saddles have some specific requirements that both horse and rider must meet, so please discuss these carefully with a dealer when ordering.  They include weight restrictions on riders, and body specifications on horses.  They recommend a weight limit of no more than 200 lb for the rider and claim they are best suited although certainly not limited to broad backed, flat withered horses like Friesians, Missouri Foxtrotters, etc.  You can learn about them by typing the name Sensation Saddle into any search engine.  I have never tried one, so I can't really say if I care for them or not.  Anyone having any experience with them is welcome to email me and let me know how they like them.

4.  Is an Orignial Bob Marshall Sport Saddle the same as a "Bob Marshall Circle Y" saddle?

No.  When I had my first BMSS made, I had to speak with the factory about some specifics, and I could not resist asking what the differences are.  I was told that the Circle Y brand of sport saddle is not nearly as well constructed as an original BMSS.  The story I got was this: When Bob Marshall first started out in the saddle business, he needed investors, and Circle Y agreed to help him.  In exchange for this help, Bob Marshall allowed Circle Y to re-produce a certain number of his saddles each year.  Therefore, Circle Y saddles are not, nor have ever been produced in the Bob Marshall factory.  Now, I cannot attest to the truth of the statements the factory manager made, but it does all make sense.  I have carefully examined the Circle Y "spin-offs" as I call them, and they do not appear to be the same.  However, I also can't attest to their quality because I have not ridden one nor do I plan to, as I am happy with my orignial BMSS saddles.  So, that's the story as it was told to me!

5.  Will the BMSS fit my horse?

These saddles will fit a variety of differently sized and shaped horses.  I have used mine on many different horses, and never had a problem with any of them.  Note:  Although the BMSS will fit many average horses, some with very high withers or other concerns may need a customized saddle.  Again, discuss these issues with your dealer or the person selling the saddle to make sure you will get a saddle that fits your horse if he has an unusual body shape.

6.  How does it feel to ride in a treeless saddle?

For those of you who have ridden bareback and like it, the feeling will be very similar.  You will be able to feel your horse move under you and communicate very effectively with him.  If you have never ridden bareback and have always had a tree between you and the horse, then the sensation of riding in a BMSS may feel odd to you initially.  At first, you may feel like you are a bit unbalanced because you are sitting MUCH lower on his back than you are used to and moving WITH his body instead of being a stationary object perched on top of him.  However, your lower center of gravity will afford you a higher degree of safety and security in the saddle, and after a few weeks, you may never want to go back to a "hard" saddle again!

7.  Can I use just any saddle pad with my BMSS?

No!  Because there is no tree to spread out the pressure of your weight on the horse's back, you should use a good quality open-celled foam  "equalizer" pad.  These pads help spread and equalize the weight of the rider over a large portion of the horse's back, thus greatly reducing pressure areas.  They also help keep pressure off the spine.  The only brand I have used is the SKITO pad, but there are others out on the market if you want to shop around.  Whatever you choose, make sure it is designed to be used with treeless saddles or your horse may suffer back problems.

8.  What size seat do I need?

Because the BMSS has no tree, they tend to "cup" up a bit when the rider is mounted.  For western models, I suggest that you purchase a saddle at least 1 to 1 1/2  sizes bigger than your usual size, depending on how snug you like your saddles.  For the english model, consult a dealer or the seller of the saddle for sizing information.

9.  Can heavier riders use a BMSS.

Yes!  I am a plus sized rider with a sturdy, short backed horse and she carries me fine in my BMSS.  Again, be CERTAIN to obtain a quality open-celled foam pad for your saddle to disperse your weight, and you can even consider having extra shims along the spine area if you are a heavy person.  NOTE:  MOST IMPORTANTLY OF ALL:  Make sure you are riding a healthy, fit horse that is built to carry a rider of your particular size or weight.  If in doubt, consult your vet or trainer.

10.  Will my horse like a BMSS?

Not one single horse that I have ever used my saddles on has seemed to dislike the saddle. I currently have 3 saddle horses but have used BMSS saddles on several other horses I have owned in the past with great results.  My own saddle has been on our 2 Missouri Foxtrotter mares, our 16 H lean Quarter/Appie, a 14 H Arab/Welch mix, a 15 H paint, a 15 H arab, and a 15.1 H quarter.  A friend also tried it on her horse, who has withers like a Wildebeast.  He was the only horse that needed a peaked pommel to accomodate his withers, but it fit perfectly on all the other horses of different sizes and shapes.

Most horses will move out better and happier without the pinching, bridging or rubbing that some traditional saddles with trees may cause.  Like all saddles, the BMSS may not suit every single horse, but the majority of horses seem to appreciate them as much as the rider.

11.  Do these saddles slip when I mount or dismount?

They can.  If you are a person that lingers in the stirrup when mounting, or puts a lot of weight into the stirrups when riding, the saddle may shift a bit.  It is always kinder to the horse and your own body to use a mounting block when possible, but a fit rider with proper mounting skills will have no trouble mounting without one and the saddle will stay in place fine.  When dismounting, again, if you linger with your weight in the stirrup, the saddle CAN slip some. 

I have seen beginners riding in BMSSaddles mount and dismount perfectly the first time, and I have seen experienced riders who have never ridden anything without a tree dump the entire saddle upside down, especially when dismounting, so it can go either way. 

The safest way that I have been taught to dismount is to swing the right leg over the cantle, kick your left foot out of the stirrup, and slide to the ground.  This method prevents your foot from getting caught in the stirrup should the horse spook or move, and also prevents the saddle from shifting too much.  I don't have a choice; my legs are so short and my horse's barrel so big that the stirrups don't even clear her girth, and if I tried to dismount by leaving my left foot in the stirrup the entire way down the way the cowboy movies depict, my leg would be so high up in the air I would fall backwards with it still attached to the stirrup.  Not good!  So...If my big, physically impaired booty can dismount without tipping the saddle, I am sure smaller, more athletic  people can as well. :)

12.  Are treeless saddles good for beginning riders?

I belived people are of mixed feelings about this issue. 

Some feel that the lack of a tree to help stabalize the saddle may cause people who are just learning to ride or getting back into it after a long absence to try to use the reins to gain their balance or to develop poor riding postures. 

Others feel that the closer contact will teach a student to balance better right from the start. 

I personally feel that because I have a great pet peeve about people being on a horse's mouth, riding in this saddle FORCED me to find my seat independently of my hands because I was horrified at the thought of being hard on my horse's mouth(s.)  I have never had any regrets about choosing a BMSS. 

13.  What problems/issues have I personally experienced with a BMSS?

Well, there are not many, but as with all things, there are some issues that I did experience in the first year or two.

As I stated, a BMSS can slip if you put too much weight on one side, not only when mounting and dismounting, but riding as well.  There are many people who have never had this problem, and there are many that have, so obviously there are also many dynamics and contributing factors that can contribute to whether a saddle slips or does not.

Avalon, my personal riding mare is big, short-backed and sturdy, but nevertheless, I have still had this problem a few times in the past when I first started riding in these saddles.

My problems stem from some physical issues that that both me AND my horse have had to learn to work with.  The left side of my (cough) rear is actually smaller than the right (my whole body is large on the right side, as a matter of fact) and I found that because I was not sitting evenly in the seat I tended to sorta slip in the saddle toward the smaller side of my body, (which was really annoying and dangerous when my horse was moving at speed and spooked to the side suddenly.)

Now, most people are larger on the dominant side of their bodies, and most of the time it's insignificant when it comes to riding, but for me the difference was enough to throw me off balance.  I tried several things...putting a towel on the smaller side, a foam shim, and (DO NOT DARE LAUGH HERE!) even buying one of those "booty" panties with the padding.  I thought I might be able to take one pad out and keep the pad on the side of the smaller buttock.  Needless to say, the booty panty was gigantic and both me and my family laughed at how ridiculous I looked until we darn near turned blue!

Additionally, my left ankle has a torn tendon and most of the time I can't place much weight in that stirrup at all due to intense pain, and even when I can, the ankle simply does not work correctly and kinda hangs there limp. (yes, I am finally having surgery soon to get it fixed!)  So my horse and I both have had to learn to compensate for a lot!

To help with these problems, I started focusing on using very light stirrup pressure on both sides, pretending that there was the proverbial "egg" between my boot and the stirrup.  I also mentioned this problem to the dealer when I was ordering my most recent custom saddle, and she suggested that I change my Skito shims from a 3/4 inch shim with smaller 1/2 inch shims running along the spine to a solid 1 inch pad.  She was right...the saddle actually did seem to slip a lot less because the pad underneath it was more even. 

These days, I have become pretty good with my balance but I will never be as good as I expect of myself, as with many riders who are very hard on themselves.  In all actuality my balance is probably pretty darn good for someone with as many neurological and physical problems as I have, (espeically on a horse that can explode out of nowhere like a thunderclap!) and there are times at the end of my rides (even rides where she had acted out) that I find my cinch is actually hanging loosely underneath my horse, and that I have been balancing like a Mongolian Warlord on the horse, loose saddle and all!

Which does bring me to my last issue:  because these saddles have no tree they can cup up somewhat when the rider's weight presses down on them.  The result can be that a cinch that seemed snug and perfect before mounting is much looser after the rider gets on.  I had gotten used to it, but my husband was right when he chided me that it was not safe, and he always insists on checking my cinch once I am mounted and before he mounts his own horse.  That helps me but not the other riders who don't have a partner to help.  There are devices that can be purchased that enable a rider to tighten the cinch while still in the saddle, and it might not be a bad thing to try if one is experiencing this difficulty. 

However, just because I had this problem does not mean all riders will.

14.  How will a BMSS help me to become a better rider?

By lowering your center of gravity and allowing you to feel the movements of your horse, you will be able to communicate leg and body cues more effectively.  You will develop a far keener "feel" for your horse's body and his movements, and be able to respond much faster in the event of problems.  Example:  my husband's horse tends to buck, but my husband can feel the buck beginning and correct it long before it has even become a crow hop, thus avoiding potential problems.  Additionally, you will develop a deeper and safer seat, and if you purchase a saddle with a suede seat, you will quite literally stick like glue even during those unexpected spins, bucks and spooks which my own ditzy mare was so fond of in the early days.

15:  Does the BMSS retain it's original value well?

Yes!  Because there is often a long factory wait for a new, custom saddle, these saddles are in demand on the used market and the ORIGINAL BMSS will retain a high percentage of it's initial value.

16:  If I buy a used BMSS from Ebay, is there a good chance it will fit my horse?

If your horse is of average size and build, there is a very high probablity that a used BMSS purchased from Ebay will fit him just fine.  If you have any questions at all, be sure to email the seller and ask as many questions as you need to, including asking for additional measurments.

I hope this guide has been helpful to you, and wish you Good Luck and HAPPY TRAILS.